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Event: Interview with Spence Denny, ABC Adelaide
Date: 25 February 2025, 7:10pm ACDT
Speakers: Denita Wawn, CEO Master Builders Australia
Topics: Construct Your Career; skills shortages
E&OE
Spence Denny, host ABC Adelaide Evenings: Hello from Spence Denny and also hello to Denita Wawn, who is national CEO of the Master Builders Association. Hello, Denita.
Denita Wawn, CEO Master Builders Australia: Hi, good evening.
Spence: So you’re actually putting together like a toolkit, if you like, to try and help those people who are unsure about a career direction, and maybe steer them toward a building career?
Denita: Yeah, that’s right. We’re really thrilled to launch today the Construct Your Career guide. It’s been written with students in mind, and it gives them lots of information about virtually every job in building and construction, but more importantly, it also gives you a lot of case studies about people on the coalface and explaining why they love doing what they do. And we’ll be making that available for every secondary school around the country. It is all circulated and available on our website as well, free of charge. For anyone who’s interested in it.
Spence: What sort of year level will you be pitching this at?
Denita: Well this is more for year 10, 11, and 12. But we’ve also been conscious of the fact that a lot of parents want more information as well. So we’ve got some FAQs and so forth for parents when they are considering what is the best option for their child. But equally, if someone who wants a mid career change, certainly available for those sort of in their middle age wanting to think about a new career. And I’ve met a number of 50 year old apprentices in the last couple of months. So it’s never too late to rethink your career.
Spence: Look, I know there’s an argument for the fact that once you’ve finished an apprenticeship, you can start earning some decent money, but there’s also been a lot of feedback in recent times. I’ve talked about it, I did an apprenticeship myself, so I speak with experience. There are concerns that apprentice wages are pretty difficult to sustain life on.
Denita: Yeah, that’s right. I look at the apprentices a little bit different. For me, it’s about getting paid while you train. An apprenticeship is all about learning the trade on the job, and an appropriate apprenticeship is all about being taught, not necessarily just simply there doing labouring work. And so from our perspective, you’re being paid to train, unlike HECS, where you’re incurring massive debts. So, this is all about not only ensuring that we encourage people interested in training, whether it’s a trade or going to university, actually, to do building construction work, but equally, we need to ensure that builders and those employing apprentices are giving them the best outcomes possible about learning the trade appropriately.
Spence: Where is the greatest need? What trades are we short of?
Denita: Really simple answer, everything. We literally have a shortage of all apprenticeships, we have in terms of those skills required. We also have shortages of people who may want to consider shorter courses, such as forklift drivers, you know, mechanical drivers and so forth in terms of heavy machinery, people who deal with cranes. So the list goes on. So the good thing about looking at building and construction industry, is that there are jobs for everyone, regardless of which one you choose that thinks suits you.
Spence: And I guess we’re talking domestic and commercial here, aren’t we?
Denita: We are indeed. We’ve got a shortage around the country, both in resi, commercial and civil construction at all levels. And so that is the good thing about people looking at a career that they’re sure there’s no shortage of jobs and opportunities. But our problem at the moment is we simply do not have enough people to do the work that we need, not only now, but into the foreseeable future.
Spence: Yeah, which trades are going to require a level of tertiary study?
Denita: Well, trades is a great thing that you can get paid to train through a trade apprenticeship. But the really interesting thing is, well, what’s next after a trade if you want to pursue tertiary education? And certainly we see people then going on and doing a Diploma of Business Construction if they want to open their own business, right through to a degree in construction if they want to be a site manager, for example, at a large commercial building site. So there’s a range of pathways, and the book and our guide actually identifies how all those pathways work within the industry.
Spence: I guess the big issue here also is, I mean, we talked about the low wages being a disincentive, and I understand the argument that you’re actually getting paid to work, but you’ve, you know, if you’re not living with Mum and Dad, it’s pretty hard to live on the low wages that apprentices get. And I guess in the case of tertiary studies, you can earn some money on the side, whilst you’re doing your tertiary studies as well. But, you know, that’s probably an argument for another day. But the thing that, there seems to be a coming back to is we’re seeing more schools that actually focus on trades rather than academic studies, to everything. These are technical colleges and things like that and that seem to be coming back. Is that the way you’re seeing it as well?
Denita: Yeah, absolutely. We’re seeing more schools and a larger variety of schools really embracing vocational education and training. And there’s two ways they can do that. The first is actually providing technical courses as part of their school curriculum, and or they can also be assisting students through a school based apprenticeship, where the student does two days as an apprentice and three days at school, and then they get the experience of being in a school environment in those really formative years of Year 11 and 12, but they’re actually starting their apprenticeship earlier. And we’re seeing more and more kids starting to look at that opportunity. I know, for example, my own son has just started a school based apprenticeship in mechanical plumbing this year, and having an absolute ball. So there are opportunities abroad, and we’re encouraging more schools to actually provide those opportunities to kids who may not want to pursue an academic career, but will do extraordinarily well in technical. And you know, certainly we see success of people in the industry. We’ve got a board that’s, you know, people that started from a trade who are now very successful business people in their own right, most of them haven’t gone to university. That should not be a deterrent in looking at a trade.
Spence: You know, I’m heartened to hear that, but I’m also reminded of a nephew of mine, actually. He did an apprenticeship as a electrician, and then went and did some fly in, fly out, working in the mines for about three years, and was disciplined. And so through that time, he crash saved until he got to the opportunity where he could start his own business, and now he’s employing people. So I mean it does take discipline, but it is also achievable.
Denita: It is and we’re very conscious of the fact that people do get attracted to higher paying jobs, whether it’s in mining or, say, for example, labouring on civil, big civil transport sites at the moment is paying huge amount of money just for labourers. So you can get detracted to that money. Nevertheless, we want to encourage people to complete their trade, because in the longer term, we know that qualification is crucial for their own business success and career success. And equally, we also hear those stories where they’re just not treated appropriately by their employer, and we strongly encourage apprentices to reach out and get support if that’s the case. That is something that we, obviously as an employer organisation, are constantly ensuring that the people that are working as employers are informed about what their rights and their responsibilities are as an employer.
Spence: I want to talk to Greg in just a minute, he’s got his own training organisation. But you mentioned there are labourers earning huge money. How do you define huge money?
Denita: We’re talking usually near up to $200,000 a year just labouring on some of those big civil construction projects, and not necessarily in South Australia, I’m sorry, but more in the bigger east coast states, and certainly that is because there is such a plethora of jobs vacant at the moment in all facets of the industry. And as such, those big projects usually have the more dollars and they can attract people at that level just for labouring work.
Spence: Wow. So, there are some people working as labourers earning $200,000 a year.
Denita: Yes, that’s correct.
Spence: Wow. I’m speechless. Denita Wawn, is with us, national CEO, Master Builders Association at 22 past seven here on ABC Radio Adelaide, South Australia and Broken Hill. Greg’s on the phone and got his own training organisation. Good day, Greg, how are you?
Greg, caller: Hello Spence. We spoke only a couple of weeks ago about military tattoos.
Spence: So, you’ve got some carpentry apprentices you’re looking after now?
Greg: Yeah, Spence, I’m the CEO of Adelaide Training and Employment Centre. We’re a large, private RTO and within our 1,500 apprentices that we have just over 800 of those are in carpentry and, in fact, a large number of those are employed by the Master Builders Association of South Australia.
Spence: Okay, and so what’s your completion rate like Greg?
Greg: It’s quite good. This is actually a national challenge, as you were just talking about a while ago, is to get apprentices from the commencement through to completion. And what we do, in conjunction with organisations such as Master Builders Association, is have a lot of wraparound services to ensure we can give early support where problems may be emerging, and hence we can manage those students through to a successful completion. But it’s definitely more than the national average, which is 50 per cent so we’re quite proud of those additional supports we can bring to bear.
Spence: Greg, there are two comments via text. I wouldn’t mind getting you to respond to if that’s okay. One of them is many businesses I’ve been associated with use their apprentices for the lowest of low jobs. And another is that the problem is that the apprentices are working with tradespeople that are not tradespeople and goes on to say the scheme is broken and has been for years. Do you want to comment on both of those statements?
Greg: Maybe I’ll take the last one first Spence. When it comes to an employer’s ability to have an apprentice, then they, the apprentice must have competent and qualified supervision.
Spence: Of course.
Greg: So I think we’d all expect that to happen. So in cases where that may not be the case, then that’s something that the Skills Commission would be most interested in, and indeed, as the RTO, we would be interested in that too, because the whole training structure is framed around an employer and the RTO sharing the responsibility for the development of the tradesperson.
Spence: Just remind me, what does RTO stand for?
Greg: Registered training organisation.
Spence: Thank you. And the other problem with apprentices, they’re basically just given the slum jobs?
Greg: Well, that’s, I was an apprentice as well, like you.
Spence: Yeah, I sharpened a lot of drills.
Greg: We have, well, I mean, sometimes sharpening drills is actually a very worthwhile activity to pursue as a first year engineering apprentice. But we have case managers in our organisation, and their role is to support the apprentice and to actually visit the apprentice on the job. And so they, in conjunction with the employers, do make sure the apprentices are addressing a level of work that is appropriate to their stage of training.
Spence: Who does the final assessment of their performance and their potential ability to then join the workforce as a tradesperson?
Greg: Well, in the case of carpentry, the student, the apprentice, completes their certificate three, and that defines their level of skill as suitable for the industry. But it is never the RTO in isolation. There’s always the registered training organisation in conjunction with the employer, making sure the skillset has been fully developed.
Spence: Okay, but, but here in South Australia, you’ve obviously got plenty of carpenters. Is carpentry still an attractive option, or electrical fitting and plumbing and things like that? Which is the more attractive trade that people tend to go for?
Greg: Well, it depends. Yeah, it’s funny you ask that. But carpentry is definitely an attractive trade, not just for young people, but most of our carpentry apprentices are of the younger cohort, but certainly we see older people who are changing careers and wanting to engage as mature age apprentices. Carpentry is very attractive, as is electrical for those that want to become a sparky, that’s a particularly attractive trade as well. In my organisation, we only deal with four trades. So we don’t go down that track of plumbing and air-conditioning and so forth. So I’m not as familiar there, but I can tell you, with over 800 apprentices in our organisation, it is seen as an attractive and worthwhile trade option.
Spence: Yeah, I wanted to be a carpenter. I couldn’t get in.
Greg: It’s not too late, Spence.
Spence: Yeah, it is. You know, when I was accepted as a fitter and turner, I didn’t even know what a fitter and turner was. And you know, it wasn’t till I was about four months in that I actually found out that that’s the apprenticeship my dad did as well. So just happened to turn out the way. Hey Greg, thank you. Denita Wawn is with me as well, national CEO, Master Builders Association. Did what Greg say ring true for you, Denita? Has that been your experience as well?
Denita: Absolutely. And I think Greg made a really good point there about those wraparound services for apprentices to get them to completion, whether it’s if they’re having struggles with their studies, struggles with their employer, we need as much support as possible, and certainly we have asked both the government and the coalition in the lead up to this election that more needs to be done in that space, to support apprentices through that if they do have problems that they are being mentored and there’s case managers there. So he’s very spot on. If we’re going to improve that completion rate of 50 per cent in areas where we know works is when you get that additional support.
Spence: Well, just before you go Denita, just remind us if somebody’s listening, or they’ve got children listening, and they’re looking at a career prospect, where can they look at this toolkit that gives them a closer look at what the building industry has to work industry has to offer?
Denita: Yes, certainly, thank you. Yes, they go to the Master Builders Australia website. There’s a link there to the guide, Construct Your Career. It became available as of today, and it’s a cracker of a read for anyone looking at all the plethora of job opportunities and some really good stories about, you know, what’s good about the jobs that are available?
Spence: Yeah. Hey, Denita, thank you. I hope it goes well, because, you know, being a trade, even if it’s not a long term prospect, it’s actually a pretty good start. So, you know, and maybe it is a long term prospect for you, but for many people, a number of people I’ve met who are former fitters turners, I’m one of them, Denita, thank you.
Denita: Thanks very much.
Media contact:
Dee Zegarac
National Director, Media & Public Affairs
0400 493 071
dee.zegarac@masterbuilders.com.au