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Event: Interview with Mike Jeffreys, 2GB Wake Up
Date: 30 January 2025, 5:05am AEDT
Speakers: Denita Wawn, CEO Master Builders Australia
Topics: Apprenticeship incentives; skills shortages; women in construction; housing crisis
E&OE
Mike Jeffreys, host 2GB Wake Up: Denita Wawn is the CEO of Master Builders of Australia. She’s been kind enough to give us some of her time this morning. Hello, Denita, thank you for doing this.
Denita Wawn, CEO Master Builders Australia: Absolute pleasure, Mike.
Mike: Builders respond to long awaited apprenticeship incentive system review. So, what do you think about, are we going to be heading in the right direction? What do you think?
Denita: Well, it’s a good start, but there’s still a lot of what ifs and maybes. There was a comprehensive review undertaken on behalf of the government. A really good range of recommendations. The government has announced one or two of those recommendations, with the remainder still to be consulted on. We are in a skills crisis in our industry, and we cannot wait any longer. So, it’s a good start, but we would like to see more to attract and retain apprentices and supporting employers doing so.
Mike: So, what’s behind the shortage do you think? I mean over the years, when I’ve discussed it, people said all parents want their kids to go to university, and really, they should be going into a trade and doing apprenticeship. Is that thinking still pervasive, or is there something else in play?
Denita: Certainly, that is a big part unfortunately of the problem. For decades now, we have treated unfortunately a trade as a second-class citizen, and it has been culturally accepted that university is preferred. Yet, when you really compare the two as in a trade and doing an apprenticeship, you get paid to train. In many instances, in most instances, your fees are paid for by the Government. There are now a range of incentives, and so you end up with your apprenticeship, with a significant trade, a good career ahead of you, with a nice income. You compare that to university, where HECS debts now are significant. There’s strong competition and lower start up wages. So, I don’t know about you, but certainly from my perspective as a parent, very encouraging our children to consider a trade, as opposed to university.
Mike: Now, the point is made by your organisation that the employer shouldn’t bear all the cost of training. Okay, let’s accept that. But then I read there’s something like a 50 per cent dropout rate with apprentices. They don’t complete their training?
Denita: Yes, that’s a really unfortunate statistic. Fifty per cent don’t complete and that is where we say we really need support. It’s not just about commencements, but the critical thing is increasing that completion rate. Part of it is about making sure that the apprentice is getting the best support they can, not only with their on the job training, but also through their studies. We see apprentices time and time again get to that third year and really struggle.
Mike: I don’t want to drift into the what’s the matter with kids today, but is it different with younger people today? Are they less likely to persevere? Is it all too hard for what they’ve grown up to expect?
Denita: I think there’s a perception that working in trade, particularly in building and construction, is hard work.
Mike: Well, it is, isn’t it?
Denita: It is, but yet it is also extraordinarily rewarding. And one of the things that we do need to teach our kids is around resilience and opportunity, and also that not necessarily every single job in building construction now requires significant physical labour. Our work health and safety standards have really curtailed some of the worst aspects that create dangerous, risky types of work. But you’re right in that, are we teaching our children the way in which they can best embrace life, and that includes physical activity and looking at things beyond sitting at a desk and being in front of a computer.
Mike: Is there too much red tape getting in the way?
Denita: There is unfortunately, although we do have to balance the importance of safety and wellbeing of an apprentice and also in terms of ensuring the quality of their training. So, there’s been a range of additional red tape in vocational education and training over the last decade, much of it has been deserved, but equally, we need to ensure that training providers and employers that are doing the right thing are not bogged down in red tape, while those doing the wrong thing are held to account. And that is a big lament of builders and subcontractors these days. A lot of them are trying to do the right thing, not only by training the apprentices, but all with all laws, whether it’s work, health and safety, tax and so forth, and yet people who are not complying with it can undercut them, and there are not enough regulators on the ground to pick them up. So that is a big issue, red tape, but more importantly, the policing of red tape is really frustrating the industry at the moment.
Mike: There was such a, I thought, peculiar story yesterday, but I feel like I have to mention it to you. You saw the story, I guess about apparently; to get on some building sites, you have to establish what your sexual proclivities are. I mean, is that relevant in any way?
Denita: No, not necessarily. And I think that is an exception to the rule in terms of making sure that information that is required is the basic information, and we’ve got to respect people’s privacy. The focus for us at the moment as an industry is encouraging as many people as possible into the sector. We, around about 85 per cent of our workforce are men, 95 per cent of our trade people are men. We would like to see more women into the sector, and so we’re encouraging 100 per cent of the workforce into our industry, as opposed to about 50 per cent. So, we’ve got to focus on the positives rather than the unusual.
Mike: Yes, I mean, the story in itself, for people who haven’t thought about it kind of implies that a building site is a hotbed of discrimination. And, you know, I was just surprised to read it. And you know, you’re told, apparently, if you’re not prepared to say what it is, you don’t get onto the site. Well, I can imagine people would just plain object to that. Just paints a very strange picture to me. But to go to the business of 85 per cent males, are you trying to encourage more women into it? I mean, is it an occupation that would be suitable for women, or is it as basic as you’re going to have to lift stuff, and you need more upper body strength?
Denita: Well, we have a plethora of opportunities in the sector, whether they’re on site, in the office, halfway in between, trade, professional, paraprofessional, labouring. There’s all sorts of opportunities and there’s a misconception that women cannot do those jobs. The industry itself has not been welcoming of women, including really simple things, like, as you say, discrimination issues, you know, female toilets, female clothing, the list goes on. And we have been running a Women Building Australian program over the last five or six years. The government made an announcement during last year’s budget for building women’s careers in male-dominated industries. That grant process is currently being considered. So, there’s definitely a push to get more women into the sector. We know that the successes of the mining industry around improved productivity with more women in that, in the mining industry, and we need to follow suit.
Mike: Well, I hope it works, because we do need the houses, don’t we? And of course, you make the point the building and construction industry is made up of over 445,000 businesses, 98 per cent of which are small in size. And small business, is apart from anything else, what keeps the economy in this country going to such a large extent.
Denita: Absolutely. We have the biggest number of small to medium sized businesses than any other industry in the country. We have the largest number of apprentices, and we’re one of the highest paying industries. And you’re right, we all need to be working towards resolving the housing crisis. 1.2 million homes has been targeted by the government over five years. With current building approvals, we’re going to fall short, and part of the reason is because we don’t have enough people into the sector. So, there is huge opportunities for us into the future, but we’re just not realising them. And for us, it is all about encouraging people into the sector, but also providing support, particularly those small to medium sized businesses, with greater relief for them from some of the stranglehold of red tape, and equally make it easier for them to undertake work, including the industrial relations changes that have created all sorts of turmoil and so forth. The list goes on. So, for us, we’ve got an election coming up, and we’ll be really focusing heavily on holding both major parties to account in getting their policies right.
Mike: Well, onward and upward. I really wish you all the very best with that, because we sure need it and just on the job itself. You know, one main survey, who am I to say? But people who’ve worked in the industry, at different levels, from my observation over the years, have done really well.
Denita: Absolutely, it’s extraordinary what opportunities there are in our sector. And I only look around our board table at Master Builders Australia. People who started out as a carpentry apprentice, now running very large businesses, as CEOs, as chairs, as managing directors. There are huge rewarding opportunities to make a go of it, and we know that AI isn’t going to take over building and construction anytime soon as opposed to some of those desk jobs.
Mike: Good point. Yes. Indeed, that it a very good point. Denita, I do appreciate your time and comments. Thank you very much for coming on the program today.
Denita: Absolutely. Thank you.
Media contact:
Dee Zegarac
National Director, Media & Public Affairs
0400 493 071
dee.zegarac@masterbuilders.com.au