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Event: Interview with Melinda James, ABC Illawarra
Date: 20 January 2024, 7:15am AEDT
Speakers: Denita Wawn, CEO Master Builders Australia
Topics: Free TAFE Bill 2024; labour shortages
E&OE
Melinda James, ABC Illawarra: Let’s talk about free TAFE studies, particularly in the building and construction industry., Master Builders have urged caution over legislating fee-free TAFE, which is certainly the Albanese Government’s plan with this Free TAFE Bill. But Master Builders says, look, this could have some unintended consequences. The CEO of Master Builders Australia is Denita Wawn, and she joins me now. Good morning to you.
Denita Wawn, CEO Master Builders Australia: Good morning.
Melinda: People would think free TAFE courses might be a great idea and a good way to desperately inject more labour into an industry that’s struggling at the moment. What’s wrong with fee-free TAFE?
Denita: There’s nothing wrong with fee-free TAFE, but as a concept, as a policy, but legislating it to, which is we believe is anti-competitive, because we have a large range of private training providers, including not-for-profit industry– led RTOs, that are either run by organisations such as ourselves or sometimes in partnership with unions. And so we’re concerned around market distortions, and in that it’s basically anti-competitive in many respects. So, we believe that there is huge opportunity for governments to provide fee-free training, but not at the expense of simply just shuffling the chess pieces, so to speak, as opposed to expanding, expanding the opportunities for more people in training, regardless of whether they go through a government system or a private system.
Melinda: Okay, so you’re largely talking about what, not-for-profit privately registered training organisations, is that, is that what, what you’re talking about?
Denita: That’s right, yes. Organisations such as ours, at Master Builders, many of our member associations they do run registered training organisations. We are not-for-profit organisations, and we believe that at the moment, with the fee-free TAFE, we’re seeing a shift between the privately run organisations to TAFE, when in fact, the completion rates at the industry led registered training organisations are much, much higher. So, our view is that this should remain a policy of the government. We applauded it at the time in terms of providing funding to ensure fee-free TAFE. The question is whether or not it should be legislated to the expense of others, to the extent that it is going to then distort the market with other providers, particularly the not-for-profit sector.
Melinda: When you talk about your, the completion rate being higher through some of these private training organisations, do you think that’s largely due to people not having to pay at TAFE, so they’re not maybe so invested in completing or is there something fundamentally different about the courses they offer?
Denita: We’re really proud of the fact that from an organisational point of view, there are additional resources that are put into mentoring and supporting people through their training, and in many respects, it is industry teaching industry. So, while there are great partnerships with TAFE with our member organisations around the country, there are greater completion rates, and it goes even higher when you look at group training organisations run by industry associations. And also, there’s a great plumbing one, for example, with between Master Plumbers and the plumber’s union that have very, very high completion rates as well. So, there is a shortage of apprentices in our industry. We desperately need to increase the numbers, but it shouldn’t be simply changing one provider to another, but rather providing support to all of those who are providing training for apprentices, not just one component of the system.
Melinda: You said you have a close relationship with TAFE, do you have any issue with any of the courses they are they are providing, and whether they are equipping people for the industry adequately? Do you have concerns with the way TAFE is delivering some courses within the construction industry?
Denita: No, not at all. TAFE providers, anyone who is providing an accredited course that is overseen by our regulators in terms of quality, should absolutely be applauded, regardless of whether they are government run or privately run, either for-profit or not-for-profit, and we need to ensure the quality is maintained. We see some outstanding outcomes with TAFE. The issue for us is more of a principled one around competition policy. Is it appropriate for a government to legislate for fee-free TAFE, at the expense of very successful not-for-profit industry run organisations. We’ve only just seen fee-free TAFE for some courses occur in the last 12 months. We’ve seen some interesting data, but we need to analyse it further before any consideration of legislation.
Melinda: Not-for-profit, doesn’t mean free, though, does it? They can be relatively expensive, particularly for a young person just out of school. They can be costly and as we’ve seen before, particularly here in New South Wales, some of these private training organisations across sectors, I’m not just talking about confined to the building industry, have not been quite up to standard, and there were lots of issues with private providers as well. There might be some people listening who are concerned that this might be a return to the past if we rely too much on some of these private operators, and there isn’t as close an eye kept over them as there should be.
Denita: Absolutely, I concur, history will show us that there’s been some real gaps in the regulatory system of some of those private providers. We are only speaking on behalf of the industry not-for-profit sector, who sees it as an incredibly important component of the service delivery to the members, our builders, to ensure that we’re getting enough apprentices through the system. Yes, we’ve got to cover costs, but it’s not at the expense of the industry. And so, we like to very much differentiate between the not-for-profit industry providers versus the just general, private providers. But I agree with you, it’s critically important that our regulators ensure that there is quality of outcomes for students regardless of what system they go through.
Melinda: So just finally, before I let you go, I mean, the government has been attempting to get this bill passed. We’re, of course, looking down the barrel of an election. If the Albanese Government were to be re-elected, what would you like to see in relation to free TAFE courses, and the balance there about what should be offered as a free TAFE course, and what role you’d like private providers to play in the future?
Denita: We’d like any government to consider the role of industry-led, not-for-profit, for registered training providers. There is a difference between private providers, and as such, there should be a consideration of, we do need support from government to encourage more people into the construction industry. We have a huge shortage of skilled workers, but it shouldn’t be picking one provider over another, if they are going to look at the legislation, then they should also consider what role that the not-for-profit industry associations provide. And I also may say unions as well, provide registered training organisations, and so we should be looking at that, not-for-profit sector, just as much as the government sector.
Melinda: Denita Wawn, I really appreciate you talking to us this morning. Thank you very much.
Denita: Pleasure. Thank you.
Melinda: That’s the CEO of Master Builders Australia.
Media contact:
Dee Zegarac
National Director, Media & Public Affairs
0400 493 071
dee.zegarac@masterbuilders.com.au