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Event: Interview with Gary Hardgrave, 4BC Radio Brisbane
Date: 3 December 2024, 3:35pm AEST
Speakers: Denita Wawn, CEO Master Builders Australia
Topics: Skilled Migration, Core Skills Migration List
E&OE
Gary Hardgrave, 4BC Radio Brisbane: So, Tony Burke, the Home Affairs Minister, has announced an overhaul of the skilled migration visa system. It’s aimed at making it easier for tradies to come here from overseas to fill the backlog in construction projects. There’s plenty of them. By some estimates, another half a million tradies are needed to manage this target of 1.2 million homes by 2029 and that’s just the housing sector. And the latest changes will see tradespeople included in the government’s three-tiered skilled migration system. Previously, they’ve ruled ineligible for being considered under the core stream of migrants earning between 70 and 135,000 some trades have now been added to the list. Denita Wawn is the CEO the Master Builders Association of Australia. So, Denita, are we now dancing a jig? Is that it? Everything’s sold. Housing crisis is over. Are you happy?
Denita Wawn, CEO Master Builders Australia: No, no, Gary, we’re not. The problem is that the government have had a bit of a sleight of hand this afternoon. They’ve announced that some trades are included on the list, but some aren’t, and they are areas, in terms of crane, lift and hoist operators, excavators, bulldozer operators, all earning over $100,000 or more. And of course, if we’re going to build those 1.2 million homes, we need far more high-density homes built, and as a consequence, we need a lot more crane operators and excavators and so forth in that that multi-unit development. So not a great outcome. We’ve been heard by some things, but unfortunately, still thwarted on others.
Gary: You know, it’s frustrating hearing you say that because you travel not too far away anywhere around the world, I said earlier today, I’ve been in the Middle East, I’ve been in Indonesia this year and in both places, there’s a lot of people who seem to be moving dirt around with bulldozers and lifting things up with cranes. There are people everywhere that can do this. How come they can’t come here?
Denita: Well, we’re still unsure. I mean, it’s interesting that all of these jobs that I’ve just said are not in the list are actually deemed to be skills of shortage in this country. So, it does not make any sense that you’ve got a list by one department that says we’ve got shortages, then the immigration list says it’s not a shortage, and so therefore shouldn’t be on the core list. So, we’re perplexed by the decision today and concerned that we have not been listened to effectively in resolving these shortages that we know the reason why building costs have gone up by 40% and our productivity has declined by 20% over the last 10 years.
Gary: Yeah, well, it’s pretty evident to me. There’s probably five letters that will sum it all up, C-F-M-E-U or U-N-I-O-N. I mean, it’s pretty evident there’s got to be some industrial pressure applied to Tony Burke, who’s keeping a weather eye on becoming Prime Minister, but that’s me saying it, you don’t have to. But Denita, let me tell you, are you happy about any aspects of it? I mean, what are what’s the ‘glass half full’ part of this announcement, if there is any, what trades are in?
Denita: Look, some trades are in. Carpenters, joiners, plumbers and so forth. So, a lot of trades that we have been calling about, and we thank the government in including those, but nevertheless perplexed that other roles that earn a lot of money, that are in shortage, are not on that list, and it simply does not make any sense to us, Gary, unfortunately.
Gary: Well, it doesn’t make sense, I think, to any thinking Australian. I mean, look, the unions have their place, but they shouldn’t be having the lion’s share of the say on this. And I know that there was some migration ideas that you could come to Australia, providing you join the Union, we let you in with your trade skill. We haven’t got time to fiddle around with this stuff. We’ve got things to build, lots of things to build in this country.
Denita: We do Gary and of course, there’s a concept of, in Australia called freedom of association, that you have a right to choose or not to choose whether or not you are a union member. We have a small component of our 1.3 million workers in our industry, union members, less than 10% and so, you know, the unions, just like employer groups, have to justify to their potential members why you need to join. But we need to focus on the here and now. We have a housing crisis in this country. We have, part of the reason for that is we have a skills shortage in this country and unless we prioritise and give due credit to ensuring that we have the number of people we need to build, then simply this housing crisis is not going to be resolved. It is simple as that. It is mathematics 101, that we need more people to build more homes.
Gary: You know, the other thing, I think some people will take matters into their own hands, and they’ll badly build things. They’ll say, I’ll do this, I’ll do that, never get it approved, but sell it on to other people. You know, these sorts of things can happen when these sorts of desperate times occur.
Denita: Yeah, unfortunately, Gary, and certainly, our statistics will say, we looked at the building approvals that came out yesterday, we’re estimating that as a 1.2 million homes we know need to be built in the next five years, we’re going to fall over 400,000 short. And that is incredible to think when we simply, in this country, in this day and age, we cannot house our community, and there is something fundamentally wrong with that. And in the lead up to an election, we really need to hold all political parties to account about what they’re going to do with the housing issues that are confronting this country.
Gary: I mean, Denita, let’s face it, people will always say, train them here, keep them here, don’t bring them in from somewhere else, but that’s just not the practical solution right now, is it?
Denita: It’s not. Unfortunately, we’ve had decades and decades, as long as I certainly can remember, of putting trade qualifications in the second-class citizen basket, which has been totally unacceptable for too long, so we are desperately trying to encourage as many people into trades through an apprenticeship, both men and women. But the reality is that if we need to build those homes now, those people are not going to be trained up quickly enough, and as such, we are going to be reliant on migrants. We’ve been relying on migrants to build this country for a long period of time, and we need to continue to do that. So that is the critical nature. We need migration. We need skilled migration, people that are recognised with their trades in this country, and we need to get on with it. So today has been very disappointing and an opportunity missed by the government.
Gary: I’m hearing your disappointment. It’s actually, just thinking, it’s 20 years ago last week, since I was appointed the Minister for Vocational Technical Education, so in essence, responsible for the national training system, we tried to gear it around what employers wanted, not what the training system wanted to offer, you know, particularly state-based TAFEs and so forth. If only that revolution we started 20 years ago had kept going, we’d have more people in these nation building trades. I think we need to sell how important these trades are 20 years on. Well, we’re feeling the full effects of it now.
Denita: We are, unfortunately, Gary, and this is the focus we need to be addressing. How do we get more young men, young women into our industry, doing a trade. The quality, you know, imagine, if you think about it, you look at the HECS debt now, of young Australians, and instead, you could be doing a trade and be a couple of $100,000 ahead with no debt after a four-year qualification. You know, to me, then the numbers and the opportunities stack up, but we are still struggling with schools and parents to understand the benefits of working in a trade, and I think that we need to take a good, hard look at ourselves as a community in ensuring that we change the attitudes towards trade training.
Gary: Yeah, look, I think this is a conversation for families over Christmas, Denita, because it’s so important, I think, to get kids geared around the idea of the practical outcomes you get from having a trade qualification, starting it while you’re at school, learning and earning at the same time. I mean, this is the way it was done in the past. But now we’re forcing kids to stay at school the end of what year, 12 or till they turn 18, depending on which comes first. I mean, that is crazy. That sort of stuff is the stuff that’s also robbing kids of opportunities to go into the trades right now.
Denita: It is Gary, and look, can I say firsthand, I’ve got a 16-year-old who, yesterday started his school-based apprenticeship. He in year 11 and year 12 is going to be undertaking two days of trade training and three days at school. He still gets the best of both worlds. He can go and play rugby, he can still be part of the school community, but he, by the end of year 12, will have a first-year apprenticeship under his belt, and he’s counting his dollars already, and so we need to be encouraging more of that. It is not a one or the other, it can be both. And that’s why school-based apprenticeships is so critically important, that we really give people the opportunity to look at all the alternatives through a trade qualification.
Gary: Yeah 100 per cent on side with that great to talk to, Denita, thank you for your time. Denita Wawn, who is the CEO of the Master Builders Australia.
Media contact:
Dee Zegarac
National Director, Media & Public Affairs
0400 493 071
dee.zegarac@masterbuilders.com.au