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Event: Interview with Politics Now, Sky News
Date: 4 November 2024, 3:45pm AEDT
Speakers: Denita Wawn, CEO Master Builders Australia, Kieran Gilbert, Trudy McIntosh, Andrew Clennell and Tom Connell.
Topics: Building Approval Times, Housing Affordability, Workforce Shortages
E&OE
Tom Connell, Sky News: If you feel as though it’s been taking longer to build homes across the country, you are correct. New analysis of ABS data show building times are blowing out. It takes an additional three months on average to build a standalone house, an increase of 40%, even longer for apartments. Joining us now on the panel master builders Australia chief executive Denita Wawn, thanks for your time, reading the release, I know red tape and so on, but what about on your side, or your members? Is there anything that they’re doing, you’re doing, you go, okay, we could be better at this. Cause surely, the blowout times on this, and apartments is crazy, there’s a bit of blame for everybody?
Denita Wawn, CEO Master Builders Australia: I certainly think, from a builder’s perspective, there’s a couple of issues. First and foremost, employing more apprentices. Some are trying really hard to do so, and find it hard to find enough, but certainly we need to be working harder on the ground in local communities to attract more people into the sector. They’ve also got to look at retention. We know there’s 8% people leaving the industry, but only 4% replacement, so the industry really needs to look at retention. But part of that is also about flexibility, we simply do not have enough flexibility, and in part that’s because of industrial relations. Our industry is based very much on full time, five days, six days a week, full time work. We’d love to see some more part time casual work, encourage more women into the industry, what are we doing around maternity leave and so forth? So, they are some of the big issues that we’re trying to address.
Tom: We’ve seen productivity down over a decade, though, so what does that mean on IR? Because we hear the Coalition say, oh, its Labor’s fault, it’s clearly not over 10 years. So, are you saying unwind changes that have happened, or is it actually beyond that, a totally new sort of outlook for the industry compared to business as usual?
Denita: Many of the things that have actually happened in the last 18 months are things that have already been happening in construction over the last 10 years or so, patent agreements utilised in commercial buildings, including high rise apartments, have been around for quite some time, and they have a lot of productivity constraints. If there’s wet weather, you finish at 11 and you don’t come back until the next day but get paid for the full day.
Tom: And what does that mean? Like, is it like, oh, there’s a millimetre of rain or a spot falls on someone’s jacket? Because I’ve heard a lot of anecdotal stuff here, and we’d down tools and the Kiwis don’t, what does it actually say there?
Denita: It’s about, there’s different provisions in different EBAs, but it simply says, if it’s wet to the extent that it is a risk, then you’ve got, you can go. Where, if you look at a non-union site, they’ll wait it out, they’ll do some training, they’ll sweep it down, and they’ll restart. And you can have situations like that happening up to about 50 or 60 days. In Queensland, likewise, there are provisions around if it gets too hot. So, we’ve got to be smart in how we negotiate with the unions. We’ve got an opportunity afforded to us with the administration of the CFMEU, we’ve got to bargain hard and make sure that we’re looking after our workers, but equally, we’re making enabling productivity happening at the workplace.
Andrew Clennell, Sky News: Anecdotally, you know, the cost of home building has doubled, in four years. Double. Why? Is it, was it the closed borders? What was it?
Denita: It’s, it was the closed borders, but this was happening even pre COVID, so we’ve had inflationary impacts, there’s no doubt about that, on materials, and we’ve still got high-cost materials, even though they’ve stabilised. We’ve got a workforce shortage, which means that instead of having your 40-odd trades coming in back-to-back, there’s delays. Delays mean time, and time means money. And so, if we don’t have that concentration of the trades, project managed right through one after the other, then we’ve got significant cost increase.
Andrew: So, is this unarrestable? This is the cost, this is the price from now on, or will we ever see it go back to anything approximating what it used to cost to build up?
Denita: We cannot see at the moment a significant decline in costs until you fix the workforce problem, and you fix the delays at council level and state government level, which is also in part, a resourcing issue, as well.
Andrew: Is that doable? Especially the workforce aspect?
Denita: Well, we think so. There’s two key things that we need to address fundamentally in this country. One is stop treating kids going into trades as though they’re second-class citizens. It is a huge opportunity, very well paid, and guess what? You get paid to train rather than incurring a HECS debt. I reckon that’s a pretty good argument. Secondly, we need to support migrants in this country who are partially trained. Let’s give them a leg up and get their skills recognised and help them with their gap training. If we go that way, we’ve got actually significant increases in our workforce. It’s a good start.
Trudy McIntosh, Sky News: And we saw at the weekend, the Prime Minister flagging, now trying to make fee free TAFE places permanent. 100,000 each year going forward, if they win the election. Does that solve some of the issue here, or does it need to be a lot more than that to get them into the trades we actually need?
Denita: This is not just about fee, free TAFE. This is about actually a cultural change amongst parents around what is the best for their kids. We hear story after story of kids saying, I want to do TAFE, but the parents saying, no, no, you’ve got to go to university. We’ve got to change that culture. I know I’ve just done it. I hope others follow suit.
Tom: So, what do you mean you’ve just done it?
Denita: My son has just signed, as of today to be, do a school-based apprenticeship for year 11 and 12, and he is absolutely stoked that he can get the best of the both worlds.
Kieran Gilbert, Sky News: One of the things that’s, congratulations to him, because when you look at the debate right now, we talk about the next generation of jobs in AI and digital and all this sort of stuff. We don’t know where the next generation is going to be, but the point that’s been made to me by mates, chippies, other builders, who they know for themselves they’ve got a job, because people are going to need houses forever. This is not while, all the tech is fine, and that’s all happening, we’re going to need tradies. So, this career your son’s going into, all the best to him, but, you know, he’s got a career, a career pathway, that is solid, and it’s not going to be, you know, gazumped by tech changes, like maybe a news presenter or journalist could be?
Denita: Or a lobbyist. Absolutely. AI aren’t taking over the building and construction industry anytime soon, certainly not the hands-on stuff. So, and if you look at being your own boss, doing your trade, doing your few years in the game, running your own business, huge opportunities in an industry that’s only got growth.
Tom: I manage a couple of patch and paints at home, but my wife pointed out you can notice the difference, so I might get your son’s number, Denita, thank you.
Denita: Pleasure. Thank you.
Media contact:
Ben Conolly
Senior Advisor, Media & Public Affairs
0423 151 666
ben.conolly@masterbuilders.com.au